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	<title>Comments on: No limits Denver hold-em&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://tmfassociates.com/blog/2014/11/23/no-limits-denver-hold-em/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://tmfassociates.com/blog/2014/11/23/no-limits-denver-hold-em/</link>
	<description>Satellites, spectrum and other stuff</description>
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		<title>By: TMF Associates MSS blog &#187; How to blow up a spectrum auction&#8230;</title>
		<link>https://tmfassociates.com/blog/2014/11/23/no-limits-denver-hold-em/comment-page-1/#comment-66195</link>
		<dc:creator>TMF Associates MSS blog &#187; How to blow up a spectrum auction&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2015 00:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tmfassociates.com/blog/?p=5360#comment-66195</guid>
		<description>[...] a 25% DE discount on its bids, the outcome is exactly what I predicted from the bidding patterns back in November. I was particularly amused to look back at Jonathan Chaplin&#8217;s comment from his December 7 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a 25% DE discount on its bids, the outcome is exactly what I predicted from the bidding patterns back in November. I was particularly amused to look back at Jonathan Chaplin&#8217;s comment from his December 7 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: TMF Associates MSS blog &#187; The NextWave of Charlie&#8217;s strategy&#8230;</title>
		<link>https://tmfassociates.com/blog/2014/11/23/no-limits-denver-hold-em/comment-page-1/#comment-66033</link>
		<dc:creator>TMF Associates MSS blog &#187; The NextWave of Charlie&#8217;s strategy&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2015 01:44:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tmfassociates.com/blog/?p=5360#comment-66033</guid>
		<description>[...] any discounts accruing to Designated Entities, who are entitled to a 25% discount. And we know that Ergen is backing two DEs (SNR and NorthStar) in the auction. While the FCC is not going to give an exact figure for the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] any discounts accruing to Designated Entities, who are entitled to a 25% discount. And we know that Ergen is backing two DEs (SNR and NorthStar) in the auction. While the FCC is not going to give an exact figure for the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: pfsiow</title>
		<link>https://tmfassociates.com/blog/2014/11/23/no-limits-denver-hold-em/comment-page-1/#comment-58804</link>
		<dc:creator>pfsiow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2014 01:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tmfassociates.com/blog/?p=5360#comment-58804</guid>
		<description>In my opinion, it will not be financially sensible for dish to buy 10B of AWS-3 spectrum even with a 25% discount. Their credit ratings will take a big hit, impact their ability to raise any more debt in the future and basically remove all other options to turnaround their biz. The spectrum leasing plan as proposed by the author as the possible route may not be a sure win plan. AT&amp;T and Verizon with annual incomes of more than 10B each had already downgraded by analyst bcos of the high price for aws-3 auction (and assumption tat they will win most of the spectrum).
Analysts will be highly sceptical if dish can support the extra 10B of debt with an declining annual income of 1B.  Dish do have 10B of cash but that they also have 13B long term debt. I doubt analysts will value the spectrum to be worth as much if dish paid a high price for them.

I think they will spend around 3-5B max, given that they just sold 2B debt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my opinion, it will not be financially sensible for dish to buy 10B of AWS-3 spectrum even with a 25% discount. Their credit ratings will take a big hit, impact their ability to raise any more debt in the future and basically remove all other options to turnaround their biz. The spectrum leasing plan as proposed by the author as the possible route may not be a sure win plan. AT&amp;T and Verizon with annual incomes of more than 10B each had already downgraded by analyst bcos of the high price for aws-3 auction (and assumption tat they will win most of the spectrum).<br />
Analysts will be highly sceptical if dish can support the extra 10B of debt with an declining annual income of 1B.  Dish do have 10B of cash but that they also have 13B long term debt. I doubt analysts will value the spectrum to be worth as much if dish paid a high price for them.</p>
<p>I think they will spend around 3-5B max, given that they just sold 2B debt.</p>
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		<title>By: TMF Associates MSS blog &#187; Masa&#8217;s choice&#8230;</title>
		<link>https://tmfassociates.com/blog/2014/11/23/no-limits-denver-hold-em/comment-page-1/#comment-57932</link>
		<dc:creator>TMF Associates MSS blog &#187; Masa&#8217;s choice&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2014 15:35:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tmfassociates.com/blog/?p=5360#comment-57932</guid>
		<description>[...] If I&#8217;m right and DISH is determined to win a significant AWS-3 spectrum position at the end of the auction, then it seems highly likely that one or both of AT&amp;T and Verizon will leave the auction with a significant shortfall in AWS spectrum in major cities including New York, Los Angeles and potentially several other markets. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] If I&#8217;m right and DISH is determined to win a significant AWS-3 spectrum position at the end of the auction, then it seems highly likely that one or both of AT&amp;T and Verizon will leave the auction with a significant shortfall in AWS spectrum in major cities including New York, Los Angeles and potentially several other markets. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: timfarrar</title>
		<link>https://tmfassociates.com/blog/2014/11/23/no-limits-denver-hold-em/comment-page-1/#comment-57724</link>
		<dc:creator>timfarrar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2014 03:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tmfassociates.com/blog/?p=5360#comment-57724</guid>
		<description>Logically, it would make little sense for AT&amp;T and Verizon to both go in to the auction with the attitude that they need to win 30MHz each. That would just guarantee an extremely high price and disappointment for at least one of them. It is far more likely they went in seeking 20MHz each (assuming T-Mobile would take the other 10MHz) and have been taken by surprise by an unexpected bidder seeking to secure 20MHz.

It is also highly unlikely that T-Mobile would be bidding $2B+ on a single license, when it went in with a warchest of little more than $3B.

So I agree there are other possibilities and we won&#039;t know it is definitely DISH until the announcement at the end. But I also believe that significant bidding by DISH is by far the most plausible explanation of what we&#039;ve seen. Incidentally, I expect the FCC to clarify net winning bids very quickly if major DE discounts are involved, to pre-empt erroneous reporting of the amount raised in the auction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Logically, it would make little sense for AT&amp;T and Verizon to both go in to the auction with the attitude that they need to win 30MHz each. That would just guarantee an extremely high price and disappointment for at least one of them. It is far more likely they went in seeking 20MHz each (assuming T-Mobile would take the other 10MHz) and have been taken by surprise by an unexpected bidder seeking to secure 20MHz.</p>
<p>It is also highly unlikely that T-Mobile would be bidding $2B+ on a single license, when it went in with a warchest of little more than $3B.</p>
<p>So I agree there are other possibilities and we won&#8217;t know it is definitely DISH until the announcement at the end. But I also believe that significant bidding by DISH is by far the most plausible explanation of what we&#8217;ve seen. Incidentally, I expect the FCC to clarify net winning bids very quickly if major DE discounts are involved, to pre-empt erroneous reporting of the amount raised in the auction.</p>
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		<title>By: tancook</title>
		<link>https://tmfassociates.com/blog/2014/11/23/no-limits-denver-hold-em/comment-page-1/#comment-57658</link>
		<dc:creator>tancook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2014 19:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tmfassociates.com/blog/?p=5360#comment-57658</guid>
		<description>I was a little unclear... my point on the potentially significant bidders (Docomo, et al.) was not that they are DEs, but they could be bidding now while the DEs that were holding licences in Round 12 have dropped out. Most of the big licences still had 4-5 bidders at that point. It is a bit of a leap to assume the DE bidders in that round are still the remaining bidders today. (Also, I don&#039;t know enough of the specifics to know whether there are other DE bidders who have deep pockets hidden behind them.)

One strategy for smaller players in a SMRA auction like this is to park bids in early rounds in the largest licences because they can preserve eligibility without any real risk of winning the licences, because the large incumbents (Verizon/AT&amp;T) will not give up the licences. As a result, any of the bidders with sufficient eligibility to bid on the NYC J-block licence could have been the holder in Round 12, even if they had no intention to ever win the licence or even pay the price at that point. This can easily explain the high number of bids in early rounds. Also, it is possible that the $1.2B in DE bids in Round 12 was split between multiple bidders, rather than a single aggressive player.

Saying that, there also isn&#039;t any evidence that your theory is wrong. It is a plausible case (although, I don&#039;t see why it makes any sense for Ergen to support two different DE bidders). He may have given them the support to go after the large J-block licences (and some others), while DISH directly targets the unpaired spectrum.

On the other hand, I can&#039;t see any evidence that this isn&#039;t a fight between Verizon, AT&amp;T and T-Mobile. If Verizon and AT&amp;T are each chasing 30 MHz, they would exaggerate bidding between themselves and could drive T-Mobile to fight back. I understand the reasoning why it might not make sense to T-Mobile to keep engaged at this point, but that logic could apply to anyone at these prices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was a little unclear&#8230; my point on the potentially significant bidders (Docomo, et al.) was not that they are DEs, but they could be bidding now while the DEs that were holding licences in Round 12 have dropped out. Most of the big licences still had 4-5 bidders at that point. It is a bit of a leap to assume the DE bidders in that round are still the remaining bidders today. (Also, I don&#8217;t know enough of the specifics to know whether there are other DE bidders who have deep pockets hidden behind them.)</p>
<p>One strategy for smaller players in a SMRA auction like this is to park bids in early rounds in the largest licences because they can preserve eligibility without any real risk of winning the licences, because the large incumbents (Verizon/AT&amp;T) will not give up the licences. As a result, any of the bidders with sufficient eligibility to bid on the NYC J-block licence could have been the holder in Round 12, even if they had no intention to ever win the licence or even pay the price at that point. This can easily explain the high number of bids in early rounds. Also, it is possible that the $1.2B in DE bids in Round 12 was split between multiple bidders, rather than a single aggressive player.</p>
<p>Saying that, there also isn&#8217;t any evidence that your theory is wrong. It is a plausible case (although, I don&#8217;t see why it makes any sense for Ergen to support two different DE bidders). He may have given them the support to go after the large J-block licences (and some others), while DISH directly targets the unpaired spectrum.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I can&#8217;t see any evidence that this isn&#8217;t a fight between Verizon, AT&amp;T and T-Mobile. If Verizon and AT&amp;T are each chasing 30 MHz, they would exaggerate bidding between themselves and could drive T-Mobile to fight back. I understand the reasoning why it might not make sense to T-Mobile to keep engaged at this point, but that logic could apply to anyone at these prices.</p>
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		<title>By: timfarrar</title>
		<link>https://tmfassociates.com/blog/2014/11/23/no-limits-denver-hold-em/comment-page-1/#comment-57645</link>
		<dc:creator>timfarrar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2014 18:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tmfassociates.com/blog/?p=5360#comment-57645</guid>
		<description>None of the three players you mention are DEs. So they were not responsible for any of the $1.2B in PWBs in Round 12. Who else is a DE and could have bid more than $1.2B? How do we get as many as 8 bids if DISH isn&#039;t bidding simultaneously through three entities (which maximizes chance of holding the license after the random allocation to equal winning bids). It makes sense to buy the expensive licenses through a DE to get the 25% discount, so the logical strategy is for DISH to drop out of the paired spectrum and let the DEs win the expensive licenses.

We don&#039;t know anything about the bidding later on. But I&#039;ve not seen any credible suggestions of alternate bidders in the NY J block apart from DISH, AT&amp;T and Verizon. You would expect three bidders (holder+ 2 bidders) if you see 2 new bids in a round.

The PWB holder can overbid itself, but this would be utterly out of character behavior for AT&amp;T and Verizon to pre-emptively push up their own winning bid. They benefit from a longer auction, where other smaller players can&#039;t maintain eligibility, so they want to draw things out. So I think only DISH would be overbidding itself and then 2 new bids indicates either DISH plus one of AT&amp;T and Verizon or all three of them are active.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>None of the three players you mention are DEs. So they were not responsible for any of the $1.2B in PWBs in Round 12. Who else is a DE and could have bid more than $1.2B? How do we get as many as 8 bids if DISH isn&#8217;t bidding simultaneously through three entities (which maximizes chance of holding the license after the random allocation to equal winning bids). It makes sense to buy the expensive licenses through a DE to get the 25% discount, so the logical strategy is for DISH to drop out of the paired spectrum and let the DEs win the expensive licenses.</p>
<p>We don&#8217;t know anything about the bidding later on. But I&#8217;ve not seen any credible suggestions of alternate bidders in the NY J block apart from DISH, AT&#038;T and Verizon. You would expect three bidders (holder+ 2 bidders) if you see 2 new bids in a round.</p>
<p>The PWB holder can overbid itself, but this would be utterly out of character behavior for AT&#038;T and Verizon to pre-emptively push up their own winning bid. They benefit from a longer auction, where other smaller players can&#8217;t maintain eligibility, so they want to draw things out. So I think only DISH would be overbidding itself and then 2 new bids indicates either DISH plus one of AT&#038;T and Verizon or all three of them are active.</p>
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		<title>By: tancook</title>
		<link>https://tmfassociates.com/blog/2014/11/23/no-limits-denver-hold-em/comment-page-1/#comment-57626</link>
		<dc:creator>tancook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2014 16:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tmfassociates.com/blog/?p=5360#comment-57626</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m still confused how you are so certain that the primary driving force behind the high bids is DISH... While there are these two DEs that are tied to Ergen (a little puzzled how that was alloed as well), they are just two among 70 qualified bidders.

Based on your blog posts, you seem to dismiss other potential bidders who would have the resources (Docomo, KKR, Carlos Slim) for an unexplained reason. There is a single data point (Round 12) that indicates one (or more) DE bidders held PWBs worth at least $1.2B at that moment. (No way to tell if they were all trumped the following round and may or may not have bid further.)

The shift to the A1 block in Round 17 is likely a sign of DISH (as expected) parking bids in the paired spectrum before moving to the licences he really wants (to combine with AWS-4 downlink spectrum).

However, I can&#039;t see, or have missedin your posts, what other evidence there is that this additional bidding is coming from DISH-related entities. At this point, there are only a handful of licences with 2 new bids per round (implying 3 bidders, assuming the PWB does not bid). Given that Verizon and AT&amp;T could be two of those for the H/I/J blocks, is there anything specific to indicate DISH is driving the handful of licences receiving an additional bid?

Technical question: is the PWB from the previous round permitted to bid in the current round? i.e., could the apparent number of bids be inflated by the perception that new bids do not include the previous PWB?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still confused how you are so certain that the primary driving force behind the high bids is DISH&#8230; While there are these two DEs that are tied to Ergen (a little puzzled how that was alloed as well), they are just two among 70 qualified bidders.</p>
<p>Based on your blog posts, you seem to dismiss other potential bidders who would have the resources (Docomo, KKR, Carlos Slim) for an unexplained reason. There is a single data point (Round 12) that indicates one (or more) DE bidders held PWBs worth at least $1.2B at that moment. (No way to tell if they were all trumped the following round and may or may not have bid further.)</p>
<p>The shift to the A1 block in Round 17 is likely a sign of DISH (as expected) parking bids in the paired spectrum before moving to the licences he really wants (to combine with AWS-4 downlink spectrum).</p>
<p>However, I can&#8217;t see, or have missedin your posts, what other evidence there is that this additional bidding is coming from DISH-related entities. At this point, there are only a handful of licences with 2 new bids per round (implying 3 bidders, assuming the PWB does not bid). Given that Verizon and AT&amp;T could be two of those for the H/I/J blocks, is there anything specific to indicate DISH is driving the handful of licences receiving an additional bid?</p>
<p>Technical question: is the PWB from the previous round permitted to bid in the current round? i.e., could the apparent number of bids be inflated by the perception that new bids do not include the previous PWB?</p>
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		<title>By: If Charlie Ergen&#039;s Dish Network Wins AWS-3 Auction, Spectrum Spin May Follow - Stock Spinoffs</title>
		<link>https://tmfassociates.com/blog/2014/11/23/no-limits-denver-hold-em/comment-page-1/#comment-57588</link>
		<dc:creator>If Charlie Ergen&#039;s Dish Network Wins AWS-3 Auction, Spectrum Spin May Follow - Stock Spinoffs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2014 13:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tmfassociates.com/blog/?p=5360#comment-57588</guid>
		<description>[...] addition, TMF Associates identifies Dish as a major bidder in the current auction. They further speculate that, if successful, the company will spin off its spectrum assets and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] addition, TMF Associates identifies Dish as a major bidder in the current auction. They further speculate that, if successful, the company will spin off its spectrum assets and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: timfarrar</title>
		<link>https://tmfassociates.com/blog/2014/11/23/no-limits-denver-hold-em/comment-page-1/#comment-57484</link>
		<dc:creator>timfarrar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2014 06:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tmfassociates.com/blog/?p=5360#comment-57484</guid>
		<description>Its not leasing capacity like Clearwire, it would be leasing spectrum on a long term basis. Look at the Grain structure.

On a TMO bid, why would DT want AWS-3 (and by extension AWS-4) spectrum that Ergen is valuing at a price they were not prepared to pay in the auction? They would presumably take cash, but Ergen won&#039;t have enough, unless he gets backing from Slim for example. However, I doubt DT value DISH stock anywhere close to where Ergen (and most analysts who put a very high price on spectrum) value it. They know about what happens when spectrum is overvalued from their European experience.

On the other bidders, do you mean DoCoMo (SKT are not a listed bidder)? Neither DoCoMo nor America Movil sought DE status, so they can&#039;t be responsible for the aggressive DE bidding we saw in Round 12 (and probably later on).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its not leasing capacity like Clearwire, it would be leasing spectrum on a long term basis. Look at the Grain structure.</p>
<p>On a TMO bid, why would DT want AWS-3 (and by extension AWS-4) spectrum that Ergen is valuing at a price they were not prepared to pay in the auction? They would presumably take cash, but Ergen won&#8217;t have enough, unless he gets backing from Slim for example. However, I doubt DT value DISH stock anywhere close to where Ergen (and most analysts who put a very high price on spectrum) value it. They know about what happens when spectrum is overvalued from their European experience.</p>
<p>On the other bidders, do you mean DoCoMo (SKT are not a listed bidder)? Neither DoCoMo nor America Movil sought DE status, so they can&#8217;t be responsible for the aggressive DE bidding we saw in Round 12 (and probably later on).</p>
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